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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Emily: Ben, you're coming
in a little hot on your mic.
Ben: Okay, thank you for letting me
know, let me adjust those settings.
Sara: Catherine Zeta Jones is
also coming in kind of high.
Emily: Yeah, well, I mean,
she's always coming in.
Ben: in every movie.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: All right.
let's talk about the haunting, shall we?
Sara: Why not?
Jeremy: All right.
It's haunted!
Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horror to progressive
standards that never agreed to.
Tonight, we're talking about a truly,
true classic 1963's The Haunting.
It's only been remade a dozen times,
but we're talking about the original.
I am your host, Jeremy Whitley,
and with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and cinebytes.
First, they're here to challenge
the sexy world of Sexy Vampire
Binary, my co host Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: Man, you know it's in the
past because they could afford
to own a whole ass haunted house.
Nowadays, this would be the haun
like, the renting of Hill Apartment.
Jeremy: I love that the Netflix
one is them, like, house flipping.
Like, they're house
flipping the evil mansion.
I love it.
Emily: Of course they are.
Jeremy: So, that's such
an appropriate update.
And the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
our co host Emily Martin.
Emily, how are you tonight?
Emily: I think I've seen this
house on Zillow Gone Wild.
Let's be real.
Like, I've seen it, I've seen it a
couple times on Zillow Gone Wild.
you know, was there for 90
years and maybe 90 more.
Jeremy: It has truly gone wild.
it haunts us, although.
And our guest tonight, author of
A Small Light in Other Stories and
Feral Architecture, Sarah Century!
Sarah, welcome!
Sara: Hi, thanks for having me.
To be clear, I'm only one
of the authors of Feral
Jeremy: One of the authors
of Feral Architecture,
Sara: are gonna write it and be like, I
don't know, she's grandstanding again.
That's a small light.
Jeremy: wrote a whole
anthology all by yourself?
Sara: See, you're being haunted by the
Jeremy: Yeah, fantastic.
Ben: I would absolutely believe if
that house was in real life owned by,
like, the last Rockerfeller in the
hidden forest of Westchester County.
Sara: you.
It's like the house is getting to you.
You're like thinking about the house.
Jeremy: I appreciate about this movie
the maximalist set design, that clearly
they were like, Well, we can't have
color, so let's have everything.
Sara: It's stunning.
Oh
Ben: yeah.
I don't know how they made that door
fucking be spongy in 1963, but Okay,
well fine, I guess I do know how they
did it then, but it looked great!
Sara: They turn a staircase into the
scariest damn thing I've ever seen.
So that's kind of the vibe of this
movie is they're just like, Hey, what
if there was a house that was haunted?
Only like, look at it.
It's so haunted.
Ben: This
Emily: staircases.
Well, I have a note in my recap about
spiral staircases and I'll get to that.
Sara: Yay!
Ben: features He's not a good person,
but it does feature one of my favorite
characters that we've ever encountered,
or at least one of the most delightfully
unique characters, and that's Dr.
John Marquay.
Because he is the only person I've
ever seen that enters a haunted house
type situation, sees haunted house
shit goes down, and says, Yes, good,
that is exactly what I was expecting.
Takes notes.
Sara: my whole intro, top notch.
He's just like, hell yeah, I'm gonna go to
this haunted house because it's haunted.
Is it haunted?
Seems like it.
Let's go!
Emily: That's a ghost hunter's dream.
Ben: supernatural shit is happening,
and his response is like, Yes, that
is exactly what I expected to happen.
This is a completely normal thing.
Let us observe.
Jeremy: I love that this man is
not scared of anything in this
movie except for his own wife.
Terrified of his own wife.
Sara: And
Jeremy: He shows up and the party is over.
Sure.
Sara: that's true.
She's like, no more messing around.
I'm here.
And he's like, oh, the wife.
Yeah, the wife's here.
Did you all remember that I'm married,
even though I've been carrying on this
flirtation with Nell the whole time?
And they're just like, right, your wife.
Right.
Ben: Uh, the, I told
you so from Theo was so,
Sara: good.
She's so good.
Ben: can we talk about Theo?
Sara: whole podcast is just gonna
be, it's just gonna be Theo from my
side.
Emily: talk about
Ben: this is the Theo power top hour now.
Sara: Yeah.
Emily: Goddamn.
Sara: Everything.
Ben: Oh my
Emily: in this movie heterosexual?
No.
Next
Ben: no, but Theo was again for 1963.
Theo was so gay.
Emily: Oh my turbo gay.
Sara: And so, yeah, that's, I'm, the
first time I watched this movie, I
remember just being like, Am I doing this?
Am I the one who's making this be so gay?
Like, I had to watch this movie like
three times before I was like, No.
Theo's gay as shit.
Like
Emily: Oh my
Ben: is less gay in the Netflix series
where she has sex with a woman on camera.
Sara: Yeah, 100%.
Jeremy: So, like, I guess we
should say there are four main
characters, really, in this movie.
They teased the fact there's gonna be like
seven or eight, and then there's just not.
The rest of them just
don't show up to the movie.
Ben: I love that.
Marcos is like, they bounce.
Jeremy: they were like, turns out we don't
have the budget for that big of a cast.
Sorry.
But, so we have, uh, Julie Harris, who
plays Eleanor Lance, who is as close
to a main character as the movie has.
All four of them are
sort of main characters.
She is sort of the how
would you describe Eleanor?
Sort of constantly flustered, sort
of living in hell in her normal life
because she has spent most of her adult
life taking care of her dying mother
Ben: She's
Jeremy: and then it's stuck
living with her, her sister
and her sisters, the husband.
Ben: the
Sara: her horrible husband,
her horrible sister.
Her sister sucks.
Ben: She's the innocent
ingenue with a dark secret.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: Oh, that sister's,
uh, yeah, that sister,
Jeremy: brother in law is 100
percent better than her sister,
Ben: Yeah!
Sara: he
sucks.
He's not that great.
And you're just like, wow.
Emily: sucks!
Everybody sucks.
Sara: Yeah, and Nell is like,
can you all at least like,
let me lock my bedroom door?
They're
Emily: I know, right?
Sara: in her shit.
Emily: you assholes are in my bedroom.
Like, way to flex though, girl.
Like, seriously.
Like, I'm renting this room,
I'm renting this couch, and
this is my couch, so fuck off.
Ben: this movie, because what this
movie needs to do, this movie has
a very short amount of time and it
needs to sell you on the audience
that her life is so empty and shitty
that you just go like, yeah, I get it.
She's like, look, her starter
boyfriend is a haunted house.
It's not great, but I get it.
We all like to feel
pretty every now and then.
Emily: Yeah, she is
she's on her last rope.
On her last, like, on her last everything.
and I've listed her as the movie's
true protagonist, because, I mean, she
doesn't show up until, like, 10 or 20
minutes into the movie, like, it's a
good chunk into the movie, but she's the
one whose monologue we hear, so, like,
Jeremy: Oh yeah,
Ben: Well, I guess the main, if
we're going by who shows up first,
the main character is the house.
Sara: Yeah.
Jeremy: yeah,
Ben: I mean, this is the
prototypical haunted house.
This is where you get your Evil Dead
2, like, Ooh, this movie uses, like,
slight zoom ins and tracking shots?
We're gonna do big zoom
ins and tracking shots.
Sam Raimi, house as character,
but I mean, this is the blueprint.
This is the OG, this is the OG HH.
Jeremy: Eleanor who they call Nell
throughout is just sort of, she seems like
the character who, she is aware that she
is the character who is going to end up
being committed by her evil sister and
her, her sister's husband at some point
so that they can take all of her shit,
and she is in that crucial in between
section there, where she is like, this
is my last chance to get away from this,
so I'm going to go hang out at a haunted
house with this hot doctor, I guess.
So, she is,
she's desperate for
any kind of
Ben: hot, in a very, like,
40s British kind of way.
Jeremy: Yeah, he could step out of this
and be, Robin Hood in the next movie.
He's just got that kind of, like,
charm to him, which is, is amazing.
That's, of course, Richard
Johnson, who plays Dr.
John Markway,
Ben: he's like an erudite Tom Selleck.
Jeremy: yeah, who, who really like,
sells us on the house at the beginning.
He's just like, here's all the crazy
shit that happened in this house,
and that's why I want to go hang out
there, because clearly this shit's
haunted, and that's what I'm after.
Like,
Sara: I'm rich and bored.
I don't know.
And it's just like toying with the
lives of people as the rich love to
Ben: I gotta be honest, I got like, I
don't know if I, if he belongs at the
Hague or if I want to start a fan club.
Sara: It can always be both, you
know, and I think that he might
fall into that category for me.
Jeremy: I'm just, I'm writing my thesis
into how fucked up these people are, and
how this house is going to kill them.
Sara: yeah,
Jeremy: yeah, we also get, So we,
we meet the woman, I guess, Mrs.
Dudley is the one who's, uh, no, wait,
she's not the one who has inherited it.
That's
Emily: that's Luke.
Jeremy: well, Luke is the son, well,
Ben: well no Faye Compton is the one who
inher is the one who currently owns it,
and part of her deal is like, Okay, Dr.
Marquay, you can do weird ghost stuff,
but only if my wisecracking nephew, like,
gets to, like, b gets to also be there,
and he's gonna inherit.
Jeremy: Theoretically, only if my
super horny, wisecracking nephew
gets to make sure you don't have
sex with anybody while you're there.
Is what she supposes in this opening
scene, is like, You can't just have women
there with you, you are a married man.
So let me send my very horny
nephew along with you to keep
you from having sex with women.
Sara: And Luke does not know what he
is getting into with that because he's
there with a lesbian and Nell, and it's
Ben: em oh, it is, It is a
Emily: Luke is there for them.
Sara: no, he is not.
Ben: Luke is, and I cannot emphasize
how important it is to Luke's
character, that he is played by Mr.
Amber Tamblyn's dad himself, Russ Tamblyn.
Jeremy: yeah.
Russ Tamblyn, who you may know
as Riff from West Side Story who
Sara: Also directed by Robert Wise, right?
The director of this, so.
Jeremy: yeah, Who is a very good
dancer and is on record saying he
is not a very good dancer, he is
just good at doing flips, and so he
fools people into thinking he's a
good dancer, which is basically, he
Emily: it works.
It works.
Jeremy: he is 60s Bobby Drake
levels of definitely not gay.
Ben: Oh, oh my god, if you are
doing 60s X Men movie, holy
shit, that, that is your Iceman.
Holy shit, yeah, fucking called it.
Sara: Yeah, post that.
We've got to post that.
We got to get him cast.
We got to get him in here.
Emily: Um, do
Ben: Disney, get your CGI
necromancy ass in gear.
Emily: Don't!
Don't!
Jeremy: he's, he's so, everything about
both his character in West Side Story
and in this feels so gay that I was
like surprised to learn that he wasn't.
Like, as, that the actor was not.
So I was like, oh, yeah, all right.
But yes, he is, a 60s, 20 something
playboy who is inheriting the mansion and
is really just taking stock of all the
silver throughout this, throughout this
Ben: character should be annoying,
but the writing in this movie is
so good, and Russ Hamblin is such
puts in such a good performance,
that I honestly end up absolutely
Sara: oh, and he's not on screen that
much because the story isn't about him.
So that makes it way better because
if this guy was in every scene, bad
movie, but he's not so it doesn't
Ben: Nope, like, as just like, a guy
who only needs to like, show up every
ten minutes or so, and deliver some
like, wisecracking, snarky, like,
skeptic, rich kid, like, banter, like,
Emily: we just wanted to give
everybody a bit of context, listener.
This character was
updated in the, uh, 2000s.
I believe it was the 1999 or
2000 version of the movie.
1999, he was played by Owen Wilson.
2000.
So, just so you know, and of
Ben: That's a Wilson
Sara: And if somebody was gonna play
Iceman in 1999, it would be Owen Wilson.
So this character is basically
Iceman, I guess is what we're saying.
Emily: but someone was
playing Iceman in 1999,
Sara: yeah.
No, not quite yet, right?
It
Emily: Oh yeah, that's too, well,
Sara: right around the corner.
It's close
enough.
Ben: was, yeah.
Emily: Owen Wilson as Iceman
would have been fantastic.
Sara: Yeah, that would have been cool.
Well,
Emily: have been, like,
Ben: I mean, the more I think about
it, the more I kind of feel like
Zoolander is a superhero movie.
Sara: yeah,
Emily: it absolutely is.
Sara: makes sense.
Emily: David Bowie's in it.
Jeremy: course, characters who are
cool the fourth one in this group is,
is Theodora, who will only really be
referred to as Theo throughout this movie,
which is as As straight as a character
named Samantha in a movie being named
Sam throughout the movie is frequently.
She's played by Claire
Bloom.
Ben: from the second she
just pulls off her gloves.
I'm just like, Theo, just,
here's my whole heart.
It's yours.
Emily: she has no last name.
Well, she might have a last name.
It might be dash question mark,
according to the list at the beginning,
but much like other flamboyant
individuals, she just goes by Theodora
Jeremy: yeah, she, she has ESP and LES.
Emily: and CNN.
Jeremy: she's, she knows things
throughout the movie, uh, including, what
Eleanor is thinking most of the time.
In a very, in a way that's
very clearly not sexual, right?
Okay.
especially when she's just like,
bullying Eleanor because Eleanor
is, is attracted to the Doctor.
And then also, like, laying next to
her and harassing her in her bed.
And then as soon as scary shit
starts happening, Theo is the
one who's like, crouched in the
corner, clinging to Eleanor.
Who's, the, the wayfish,
generally scared one.
Eleanor is scared during daylight hours.
Ben: Yeah, sure.
I mean, it's a shame Theo didn't
wait a little longer to shoot her
shot, because I feel like Grace
totally would have been down.
Emily: Yeah.
Sara: you're onto something.
Emily: Yeah.
Markway would have been
like the whole Markway.
We would have had a situation there.
Ben: would have been off doing ghost shit.
They wouldn't have even noticed.
Jeremy: mean, if Theo had
been
nicer, she could have
just swooped in at the end
Ben: They, like, Grace and Theo would
have been, like, going to town on
each other, and then Marquit would be
like, what are those strange noises?
Be like, I'm ghost, I guess.
I don't hear anything.
Be like, ah, right, right,
right, right, right, notes.
Emily: Yeah, I mean, honestly,
Ben: Flawless affair plan.
Flawless
Emily: yeah.
Do we talk about writers?
Jeremy: We didn't yet.
No,
Sara: Well, I was curious if anybody's
read the book because this is like
one of my favorite books, one of
my favorite writers, everything.
So I was curious if
anybody's checked this out.
Emily: I have read the
Ben: not.
This is, yes, based on the 1999 Shirley
Jackson novel, The Haunting of Hill House.
Emily: 1999?
Jeremy: Okay.
Sara: it was from back then.
Jeremy: There you go.
I know I have not read this one.
Sara: Oh, the book is incredible.
Ben: it's 1959.
It's gonna be a bad time.
Emily: Yeah, well,
Ben: It's a bad party.
Emily: 1999 as well.
Ben: The only people having a good
time at a party in 1959 are people
you don't want to party with.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: So, so tell us as far as
the, the translation of this from
the book, like how do you feel it is?
Is the book more or less gay than the
Sara: I'm, well it's by Shirley
Jackson, so I don't think it's less gay,
Emily: mean, I think it's less overt
because it's a different gay vibe.
Sara: Yeah, because well, okay, so
what I was going to say is in all of
these different adaptations that you
might have seen of this in, like, all
of them, it's just going to be Theo,
who is the biggest difference, I think.
So, in the book, Theo is clearly the
Gay, but she is kind of put off by
how needy Ellen, or yeah, Nell is.
And so it's kind of a
different relationship where
Nell is like dazzled by her.
It's a little bit more
like the 1999 one, sort
Emily: Yeah, sort of like, wow,
Sara: Vibe wise, I guess.
Yeah.
And then in the 1999 one, of course,
she's bisexual and she's like the 90s
cosmopolitan bisexual who's super cool
and like parties all the time and is
great, but played by Catherine Zeta Jones.
In the most recent one, she's
like a therapist, right?
And she has like a huge
fear of commitment, right?
So
Ben: She's also got like,
psychic They also took that glove
scene that and this was just like, hot
gay lady takes off gloves in a sexy
Sara: And they're like, let's
take that very seriously.
Ben: they were like, this
is her whole character.
She now has uncontrollable psychic
visions when she touches people, so
she has to wear gloves all the time.
Emily: Love that for her, maybe.
Sara: is definitely the point of view in
the book, definitely by a wide margin.
She, but then in this, I think it
is more the house's point of view
and it kind of changes I think
from adaptation to adaptation here.
I'm gonna say the house is
the protagonist antagonist.
Ben: I do appreciate how, I mean,
you know, I wouldn't recommend it for
everything, but for something like The
Haunting of Hill House that has had
as many adaptations as it has, I do
appreciate, the Netflix series taking
that swing of like, hey, let's throw a
few more extra characters in there and
also everybody's siblings and parents now.
Emily: Didn't the book
have more characters?
Sara: Yeah, there were more characters and
there's more information about everything
like you get it's you know the movie is,
I think, widely acclaimed for being so
sparse right and having this minimalistic
approach it has obviously this gorgeous
set but it's kind of a minimalist horror
film because there's nothing there
where you don't really have monsters
or anything there's not a big special
effects budget and they're just kind of
like, Let's spin the camera around or
Jeremy: their special
effects
Emily: so good,
Jeremy: the camera and wallpaper.
Sara: And it's great.
It's great.
It's so good.
Ben: is such that they clearly blew their
whole budget on just getting that house
like no the minimalism works like how much
again the mileage that this movie gets
out of just banging noises on the wall
Sara: Cause it's scary!
This movie scares the
hell out of me, even now.
I like, watch it and I'm just like,
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!
Like, it's not her hand, it's not her
Emily: all you need, I mean, to be scary,
you don't need a monster so much as
you just need that, that fear, right?
I've watched enough Twin Peaks to
know this, I'm way more scared of that
stoplight.
Ben: Twin Peaks featuring Russ Tamblyn
Emily: Yes.
Yes.
Ben: I'll tell you another character that
Marquardt reminded me of, and that is
in or Marquay reminded me of, and that
is, yeah, is Sergeant Maka in Wellington
Paranormal, where weird shit would
happen, and this one guy with a deep
voice would just be like, Well, here's
my random ass guess, and then that's
all we the audience get as explanation.
Emily: And he's super into it.
Ben: Yeah, that
Emily: all about it.
Ben: he's just like, This harp,
this fuckin harp is playin itself.
You fuckin seein this harp?
I don't know why I gave him a New
York accent, but it was better
than trying to do a British one.
Emily: I mean, he had a very he
was very, like, New England accent,
from what I remember.
Jeremy: voice sort of really takes over
the end of this movie, too, because it
has a very Hitchcockian, Twilight Zone
ending, where something tragic happens,
then everybody stands around and talks
about it for a little while, and they're
like, And this is the lesson of this film.
oh,
Ben: hilarious,
Emily: he does the intro.
He does the intro, but she does the outro.
That's
Ben: I love this, you're absolutely right
about this scene of them all standing
around talking about what it all means,
but I especially love it in this scene,
or I just find it funny, because they're
all standing around talking and being
like, Oh, a woman died in front of us.
That's sad, right?
And then they're like, Normally,
yes, but for her, I don't think so.
Like, it really was these four people
just like, rationalizing themselves
out of having to feel bad for a
woman's death right in front of them.
Sara: did you see the sexual chemistry
between her and that house though?
Because it was like, way off the charts
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Sara: else that was going on.
Emily: Yeah.
Her, like,
dancing, And
Jeremy: over balconies.
Emily: yeah.
Ben: Like they really all did kind
of stand around have themselves their
own little like movie podcast and it's
like so what's the
Sara: just
Ben: what's the theme?
What what what would you like the
themes of this woman's death was?
Sara: We should get out of here, you
know, like.
Jeremy: that they do it after
Markway's wife shows back up, feral
and not sure how she got outside.
And she's like, I don't understand
anything that just happened.
And he's like, interesting.
So, you're telling me,
that you somehow ended up
Sara: you.
Emily: God.
Sara: They should get divorced
probably, but I did get the
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Sara: like each other's beards kind
of is kind of how it felt to me,
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben: like, I know it's old timey and
other cultural concerns, but, I feel
like in terms of communication and
talk make sure you go into it with
shared values before you get married,
I feel like you should've had a talk
about, like, Hey, I'm gonna dedicate
the entirety of my life to ghosts.
Sara: Ghost hunting.
Yeah.
Ben: is that a thing you were
would also be interested in?
You think they might've met at a
ghost hobby, uh, like a ghost hunting?
Meetup, had some common interests.
Sara: No, he was just hanging out next
to like, yeah, I was like, that guy
was just hanging out and got married.
Just
Ben: this was some, like, their
Emily: was arranged,
Ben: their dads were, like, business
partners, merging companies, and they
needed this as, like, extra business.
Emily: and they, yeah, and
they're, and she's, she stood to
inherit the company, but she needed
a man, to be there, and so, or
whatever, like, I don't know, I
Sara: he's so sick of this guy by now
Emily: oh, my
Sara: embarrassing her.
Emily: and he,
Sara: every conversation turns
Emily: money for all this shit,
for sure, like, this is, he is
working on her dime, and, yeah, but
Sara: And Theo's like, she could use
that money to fund my art bullshit.
So
Ben: uncovered this fucking
crazy story from the 1960s.
This just weird, bored, rich
doctor got like a bunch of people
together in this haunted house.
They all just fucking like, I
think he started a ghost cult.
They all fucking, like, tripped balls.
One of them died, and they just
fu and they, never reported it.
They just left.
Emily: well, this the, John
Markway's whole deal is 100
percent true crime podcast.
Like, he is so into the true crime.
He's like, it's fascinating that she,
can hang herself from the staircase.
I mean, it's fascinating.
I mean, it's like, it's sad, but
Jeremy: The idea that, I feel like
Sarah sort of proposed here, that
like, they're both, like, they hadn't
really talked about what they're into
beforehand, and, and suddenly, like,
he's really into ghosts, I, for some
reason, in my mind, it's just like,
he was not aware that, like, hauntings
and ghosts were things that people even
talked about, and just, somebody said
something to him about it one day, and
he was just like fucking Bobby Newport
from Parks and Rec, and he was just
like, tell me more about hauntings.
Oh my god, that sounds great.
Sara: before that he was into
sea diving, before that he
was into, you know, it's like,
Ben: this
Emily: from, he, like,
when he was little, he was,
you know, his folks were like,
Ben: This guy is obs They never
mention the movie, but this guy is,
1880s and 1890s, and just goes around
being like, I should have been born
40 years earlier, then I could have
hung out with, like, Aleister Crowley.
Emily: Oh, shit.
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, he was really
into trains before this, and he's
going to be, he's going to be
really into vikings after this.
Emily: Oh, bless.
Ben: Look, in ten look,
in
Emily: Twitter these days would be wild.
Ben: in
Jeremy: sequel to The Haunting has
nothing to do with haunting houses.
It's just him, like, going out into,
like, Iceland and, starting a viking cult.
Ben: The only thing keeping this guy from
being a World War II history expert old
guy is just chronology of world events.
Emily: Yeah, should I do the recap?
Jeremy: Yeah,
Ben: yeah, yeah, yeah,
let's let's let's yeah.
Emily: Okay, I'm gonna do I'm gonna go
through this one real quick So we start
with the recap once upon a time this dude
named Hugh Crane made a spooky house and
it killed his wife and then It killed
his other wife and then it killed his
daughter and then it killed her wife.
was fucked up.
Jeremy: first episode of
his True Crime Podcast.
Emily: he's like super into it So now we
jump to the present Joshua John Markway
is the one who's narrating all this
he's an anthropologist, science guy,
he's planning to see just how haunted
the Haunted Hill House is haunted.
And he has handpicked a group of
gays, I mean, a group of researched
individuals to help him with his
Ben: he really did go full Billy Eichner.
Let's go, lesbians!
Let's go to the haunted house!
Jeremy: You know what, it just turned
out that the other people were like,
turned out to be married and or
straight and he was just like, yeah,
Ben: Luke
Emily: Yeah,
Sara: out of
Emily: like, knocked off the list
Ben: Okay,
Luke Luke has such transmasc
twink energy going on.
Emily: Bless his heart.
For real, though.
For real.
Jeremy: Jet all the
Emily: that motherfucker,
like, was on screen, I was
like, This man is a homosexual.
Like, I could not so, but
anyway, before that, Eleanor.
We have Eleanor.
She's our true protagonist other
than the house, as we have said.
She's been through some shit, including
the recent death of her long invalid
mother, her sister and her family
try to treat her like absolute shit.
We hear her inner monologue and
follow her experience with the
horrible and vile house, but she is
either in love with or repulsed by.
So, you know, typical 60s romance.
So, Eleanor is the first to arrive, and
she meets Miss Dudley, the caretaker.
Miss Dudley has this whole, don't
be here at night in the cold in the
dark routine, down to a science.
She is also a true crime podcaster, or
at least, A murderino, and she loves
the, like, just psyching people out, and
she just doesn't give a shit, and I love
Ben: She's definitely like She's
definitely full on like, I didn't
feed my husband to tigers, but
if you're gonna feed a husband to
tigers, here's how you should do it.
Emily: Yeah, like, the second that
Eleanor, like, picks up on her
whole routine, she's like, Yes!
She has, like, this huge grin on her
face, like, Yeah, and it's, and you'll
get, and you'll die if you don't do this.
Bye.
Sara: is like, it's 3pm, I'm out of here.
And I like that too.
Emily: and she, yeah,
she's like, as they're
talking and fucking ignoring her,
Ben: Aspire to her work life balance.
Sara: Yeah, yeah,
Emily: her.
Yeah, I know,
Jeremy: I love that
Emily: one of the more
Ben: She is not available for a Zoom call.
Jeremy: just want to, I just want a
comedy that's just her and Theo living
together where she's like, like, I
don't do anything at, like, I leave the
house at 3pm and Theo's like, darling,
I'm not even awake at 3pm, like.
Sara: Neo, drunk,
yes,
as she is through most of this
movie from what I can tell.
Ben: I need this, I need this
like, terrible Batman Alfred combo
where she doesn't take care of the
house and he doesn't fight crime.
Emily: there you go.
There you go.
So, Eleanor is now, after meeting
Miss Dudley we now meet Theodora,
who has no last name, unless it
is dash question mark, as Dr.
Markway has noted on his board.
So anyway Theodora is a psychic,
definitely not a homosexual.
She definitely is a homosexual.
Anyway the rest of the flamboyant party
Ben: that's her last
name, Theodora Notgay.
Emily: Nake, yeah, home of sex this
the haunting of home of sexual.
the rest of the party is
introduced, we have Dr.
Markway comes in, and Luke, the latter
of whom is said to inherit the property.
And also definitely not
a homosexual in the 60s.
So anyway, the house is very
spooky, huge, and cool as fuck.
Eleanor hates it, she loves it,
she hates it, and she loves it.
And for night one, ghosts are running
around and banging on the walls.
What also sucks is, aside from the
ghosts, everyone alive just loves to fuck
with Eleanor and bully the shit out of
her when they're not flirting with her.
The spooky shit keeps happening and
escalating, and Eleanor explores her guilt
about her role in the death of her mother.
Theodora viciously negs Eleanor
while doting on her, as does Dr.
Markway.
Then,
Ben: I do have to say, Theo's
game is all over the fucking map.
Emily: oh my everyone's fucking game
is over all over the map, and like,
Eleanor is just being like, fucking
ponged around by these people,
and they're
Jeremy: to me that, like, Theo has sort
of, like, the opposite reaction about
Eleanor that Luke has about Theo, which is
like, If you're not gonna flirt back with
me, then I'm just gonna be mean to you.
and, like, Luke is like,
Oh, you're not into me?
I guess we're best friends now.
I guess we're gonna play poker and stuff.
Like,
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: we're just, we're just buds.
Sara: in Theo's defense, not to defend
her because she is nagging, no, not
to joke around, but there is like
this kind of idea that Markway is just
gonna really hurt, no, and I think
that that's kind of a fair concern.
So it's kind of tied up in this
care, but it is like, not really.
Right?
Emily: It's not good communication,
Ben: what it is.
This movie came out, like, fuckin
60 years earlier than the meme.
But Theo was just watching everything,
like, about Nell, falling for Markway,
and knowing what kind of a man
Markway is, and just knowing, like,
can't stop it, it's a canon event.
Sara: So I'm going to
be very irritated by it.
Emily: Yeah.
Um, so, in the midst of all of this spooky
shit happening, who shows up but Dr.
Markway's wife, Grace.
Eleanor is disappointed because she
was angling a bit for the old doctor.
Grace is a sensible woman who decides
to sleep in the haunted est room of the
house that she insists is not haunted.
Everyone is like, fine, but we're all
gonna sleep in the same room because
shit's fucked in my humble opinion.
More spooky plumbing sounds
happen, but everyone gets rightly
mortified when one room door starts
pulsating like the TV in Videodrome.
Luke is finally convinced that he
doesn't want to inherit the house
and turn it into a nightclub.
Eleanor is like, I think
the house wants me in
Ben: Yeah, what plan is that?
You're in the middle of
wherever the fu of where?
Rural Massachusetts?
What fucking nightclub?
Sara: It was gonna be a bathhouse, and
I think that that's what makes sense.
Emily: yeah, yeah, there was some sort of
Ben: Fair.
Okay,
Emily: happening, or at
least, quote unquote,
Jeremy: I gotta say, if like,
the deal is, the deal with this
house is that nobody comes any
closer than the small town nearby.
It might be a hell of
like a, an orgy spot for,
Emily: Oh,
Jeremy: if we're talking like, we're
talking that kind of nightclub.
Emily: This is like a Bohemian Grove
Ben: I definitely want to see a thing
where it's like, it's the haunted house.
It's spooky.
Monsters live there.
It's like, we're just gay.
Emily: Yeah, it's just fucking
Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Eleanor's like, I think the house
wants me in particular, so I
guess I'm down for that, I'm down
to clown with the house, and the
house is like, yes,
Ben: so clingy for that house.
Emily: yeah we're gonna
do this with gusto.
Grace disappears from her room and Eleanor
goes fully nuts, the rest of the party
frantically looks for them and this
is where I had a note about how spiral
staircases are legit the most cursed
building fixture aside from elevators.
Fortunately.
The Hill House has no elevator.
Can you even imagine if the Hill
House had a fucking elevator?
And how fucking terrifying that would be.
I mean, we kind of got that in The
Shining, with the blood elevator,
where fucking Stanley Kubrick's
like, Oh, yes, I will do this.
What we need in the haunted
house of the Hill is an elevator.
Oh, I think it was in
Ben: this movie definitely didn't
have a budget for an elevator
Emily: No, no, no.
But that spiral staircase is fucked.
Ben: Man, I wanna, like,
Emily: all spiral
Ben: that, that, truly
did not, that was scary.
Just in its structural, we, unintegrity?
Sara: yeah,
Emily: It's, it's lack of
Sara: of intricacy.
Ben: Like, how did you build that?
How were the actors made
safe while filming on that?
I'm worried that's, that was
legitimately unsafe to film on.
Sara: I was just wondering
why spiral staircases exist,
actually, other than to, like,
Ben: cause it's the most extra shape.
Sara: Yeah.
Emily: I mean,
Ben: You look at a circle, a
Sara: They should,
oh,
Ben: going, like, yeah, you think you
like circles, what about infinite circles?
Sara: I just be like, oh, they
should make a slinky staircase.
Now I'm like,
Jeremy: will say as a tall person,
I liked spiral staircases until
the first time I got on one and was
immediately like, Fuck this actually.
Emily: my God.
Yes,
absolutely.
Jeremy: I have to walk halfway over the
edge of the staircase to get around it.
Emily: Just have a ladder.
Just have a ladder with no railings.
Like, that's how I feel
about spiral staircases.
I'm like, just make a ladder.
Ben: staircase should just be
replaced with a firefighter's pole.
Emily: Yeah, for real.
That like, that, that
Jeremy: it's only
useful from one direction though.
You can't getting up the
firefighters pole is a little
Emily: Yeah,
Sara: firefighter pull of horror.
Emily: Yes.
Now,
Ben: if they can make Night Swim a movie,
we can do the evil firefighter pole.
Sara: I stand affirmed.
Emily: the, yes, and the second that
that spiral staircase appeared in this
film in the very beginning, with like,
the daughter's wife walking up it with
her like, platter of noose, like, she
had the noose on a silver platter, like,
walking up, like, she's gonna serve
it to somebody, and then she suspended
herself from the spiral, and I'm like,
this is, I know, you don't need to, you
don't need to show me a movie, like,
thank you for not showing me anything
but these feet, like, and the spiral
staircase, like, I know, anyway, I,
spiral
Ben: for showing me nothing but the
feet, Emily and Quentin Tarantino.
Emily: Shut up don't compare me to him.
Ben: I just saw the chance to
quote you out of context in a
humorous, in a humorous way.
Emily: Fair, but it's a lot,
it just don't bring me into
Quentin Tarantino, he's a freak.
I will be quoted in and
out of context on that.
Quentin Tarantino, you're a freak.
And I know you know it, but I'm
just saying, for the record,
Quentin Tarantino, freak.
Jeremy: you're you're definitely
listening to this podcast
Emily: yeah,
Ben: Yes.
Emily: I don't care whether
or not I'll go out there.
from the mountaintop.
Anyway,
Ben: I liked Once Upon
a Time in Hollywood.
I think the Bruce Lee scene
was weird and in bad taste.
Emily: I think some of his movies are fun.
He's still a freak though.
Ben: Glorious Bastards.
I've never been more proud
to be Jewish than watching
In Glorious Bastards, though.
Emily: yeah.
All right.
So anyway, so the spiral
staircase is fucked up.
Eleanor, they find Eleanor.
She's halfway up the spiral staircase
following her call of the void.
Dr.
Markway follows her up the
staircase and trying to convince
her not to jump, I guess.
And he succeeds, but not before Eleanor
sees Grace, like, peering her down from
the ceiling, like, ceiling cat, all
of a sudden, and then disappearing.
Sara: It's so,
good.
Ben: That definitely got me.
That's like the movie's,
like, one jump scare.
And that they wait so long, like,
definitely, like, I very much
wasn't expecting a jump scare,
so it definitely got me for sure.
Emily: yeah, no,
Jeremy: feel a little bit like the evil
short person gag in, uh, the end of Don't
Look Now, where you're just like, what?
Sara: Mm hmm.
Ben: Oh, I was gonna say, it reminded me
of Wreck, when there was a random, never
before seen zombie child in the attic.
Emily: I think this worked better
than all of those things just
because she already was missing
Ben: Yeah, because, yeah,
because, like, she was a known
quantity, and not just weird.
Emily: yeah, I mean, the whole thing
about like, oh, the house is taking her.
And so Eleanor's like, I can't,
she, the house is going to take
her unless I give myself to the
house and they're like, Eleanor,
Ben: Well, no, not, no, that
makes it sound self sacrificing.
Emily: that's what she was though.
Ben: no it was not.
That was a, she was like,
she can't satisfy the house.
The house
wants me, it doesn't want her.
Emily: Look, Eleanor was trying
to justify this from every single
Ben: Eleanor
started with, uh, like, She's trying
to take my man, the doctor, to, She's
trying to take my man to the house.
Emily: Yeah, I mean she was all over
the place from the get go like at first
she's like fuck this house It's fucking
Ben: Yeah, no, that was
Emily: she's like, you know
Ben: myself to save Grace.
That was like, she can't, like, She can't
be absorbed by the house the way I can.
We're me you were I was meant
to be absorbed by you, house.
Emily: Man, I've yeah.
Ben: Like, if I'm the house, I'm being
like, Damn, okay, the tables have turned.
I think I have, like, the stalker now.
Emily: Yeah, the house is like sure.
I mean, I guess
Jeremy: why it's the haunting
Emily: do I
Jeremy: House.
Hill House is being haunted.
Ben: Bye, Nell.
Emily: Bye Nell.
Yeah.
we have the little bit of grace and
now they need to save grace everyone
is trying to convince Eleanor
to leave because she's fucked.
Why not?
But she insists on staying
because of the things that Ben
and I were just talking about.
And Dr.
Morwa blah blah blah.
Dr.
Markway.
He's just every name.
Dr.
Markway sends her off in her car, she
says she is okay, she is not okay.
She runs into a tree in the car
and dies, just like the first Mrs.
Crane in the carriage, she
ran into the same tree, whoa!
But hey, they found Grace, she's okay.
Ben: She does Like, at first she's
like very She's like, yeah, the
house is taking control of the car.
I was right.
But then it starts tearing her
into a tree, and she's like, Oh
no, the house has betrayed me.
I'm like, damn, Nell, did you
just get he's just not he's
not that into you by a house?
Emily: I think that she didn't really
understand what the commitment was.
Like, she didn't understand the bargain.
Like, she was all, Oh shit,
people die when they're killed.
Oh, bah, wah, and then the
tree and then she's dead.
Jeremy: She wants hers, she just
doesn't, like, want her body.
Emily: yeah, you know, her soul is
his, or theirs, just like Shang Tsung.
Ben: I do like how they're like,
And at the end he's like, Alright,
everyone get to the car, I'm gonna
pack up and get our shit, And they're
like, Dude, you can't go back in
there, it's the haunted murder house!
He's just like, It's fine, it's a
sleep, It's like after a big meal, It's
sleepy, Just ate a new soul, it's fine.
Emily: yeah, we can, the house
is distracted, let's just kind
of, we walk away, very slowly,
Ben: I love that explanation, But also,
the Bold certainty that this man says a
thing that he just pulled out of his ass.
Emily: I mean, old white man,
Ben: Oh, yeah, this man's
gonna write so many books.
Emily: yeah.
Sara: They're out of print today though.
Ben: Oh, very much out of print.
Yep,
Sara: Good luck.
Ben: and he refers to Theo a few times
by words you really can't use anymore.
Emily: yeah, yeah.
There's some
Sara: under a lot of shit.
I mean, there's that's kind of, it is.
I feel like everybody is under the worst,
but then with Markway, it's harder to
feel bad because he made it all happen.
Ben: Ryan, like, this like, at no point
does Markle, like, as, normally with a
character like Markle, you would have
the character at some point be like,
Oh, I got more than I would bargain for,
Sara: whoopsie.
Now a woman's dead.
Ben: now it's turned on me.
Sara: he's like, wow, we
all just came here as total
equals and made this decision.
And now we've got to leave her, I guess.
And that's like.
Emily: The
way that he turns on Eleanor
is
Sara: he does big time.
That's like what bugs me about it.
That guy actually, I don't know,
he kind of bums me out in some
ways because it's like, you know
what
Ben: a good person.
Sara: it's like, you're playing with
Nell in a messed up way and I think
that like a lot of like I don't know.
Him and Theo definitely are kind of
mirrors to each other in that situation.
I don't think it's a good mirror, but
I gotta say he bums me out when he's
like kind of, uh, he's just like letting
Nell like live in her ideas, right?
Which is like,
Ben: I
Sara: all been guilty of that, right?
But it's also like maybe not a good thing
to do when you're like literally married
and you know that your wife is your source
of money, so you are never gonna leave
Ben: and he, and he really is,
like, This is a man who maybe
hasn't slept with a student, but
has definitely flirted with a lot.
Sara: Oh god, yeah, for sure.
And like, okay, so one thing is, is that
in the original script, apparently the
way that Nell's story was gonna start
was by a door slamming in her New York
apartment and she, like this door slams
and then she goes into the bathroom and
in lipstick it is written, I hate you.
So she apparently gets broken up with like
right before all of this happens, right?
Like that's kind of what the
Not actually in the script part.
I mean, it's in the script, but it never
actually made it to the movie, right?
Emily: yeah.
Sara: That's context for Theo, I
guess, but yeah, we don't really get
it because I think people were just
like, Oh, we don't, have to try it.
To make Theo come off as gay.
She's, she comes off
pretty gay in this, right?
Like, she looks like Susan Sontag, so she
like walks in with her turtleneck just
being like, look at my silver necklace.
Like, I'm here to be psychic.
I don't know if that's a gay thing for
you all, but it is kind of where I'm from.
Ben: They mentioned she got 19
out of 20 cards right, I wanna
know what the 20th one was.
Sara: Yes.
And I am also like, God, Theo, you're
so good at your job of being a psychic.
God is so good at her job.
And she's super hot.
I'll know.
I would say like everyone in this
movie is pretty hot as a lesbian,
I can, I can appreciate the array.
And I would say to you that yeah,
Theo's probably the hottest though,
Ben: Oh, Theo
Sara: kind of heartbreaking.
Ben: they're like, we knew, at the
end, Luke's like, we should burn, er,
what's his name, is his name Luke?
Yes.
At the end, Luke's like, we should burn
it down, I'm like, just let Theo walk by,
through it a few more times, cause, woo!
Sara: let her be like,
Ben: She
is scorchin
Sara: yeah, no,
she is.
Ben: just have her show up in the
foyer and take off her glove again.
Sara: And it's just like, suddenly
I'm like leaving my wife and children
now, like, um, okay, Theo, I'll go
wherever you want to go, I guess, like,
I'll protect you from these ghosts.
Emily: Honestly, if she went
back in that house, the house
would have like absorbed her too.
Sara: Theo's smart, she
doesn't go back in the house.
Emily: yeah, yeah, she knows because she's
like, now that Eleanor is in the house, I
don't know if I'm ready for that kind of
Sara: I'm up next,
because these guys aren't.
Emily: yeah.
The house after Eleanor is now
the wife and then what happens?
The first wife dies, the second wife
dies, the daughter dies, her wife dies.
And now we have another wife and
then the wife's wife is gonna die.
Like, that's how that, the haunted
house, the hill house works.
Ben: definitely lost track of
that at a certain point, but yes,
Emily: everyone's wife.
Sara: Yeah.
I would never take my wife there.
I would
never
Ben: is that, is this girl math?
Emily: maybe there's some math involved.
Yes.
Jeremy: I think it was
girl girl math if I'm not
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Girl squared.
Ben: well, that's, that
math always adds up.
Emily: Yeah.
That's why we're bringing
this bra in algebra.
I don't know.
Thanks.
Ben: Hey, I hear, we're,
we're going to the math body.
I hear they got algebras.
Emily: Hmm.
Thank you, Ben.
Ben: I, I tried to bring it home with
a math themed Dick Tracy villain.
Emily: That's pretty good.
Like as a, is that an
actual Dick Tracy villain?
Ben: but it could easily
fit in there.
Emily: That's, that's who Theo is.
She is the algebra.
She is the math Dick Tracy villain.
That's her, her destiny.
And she can fight
Sara: I was like, if, if
Ben: I heard Molly Maps
robbed the calculator store.
Sara: I was gonna say that if Theo was a
Dick Tracy villain, it would be like sfo
Dilla . Like something turtleneck sfo.
Dilla turtleneck.
Yeah.
There we go.
Ben: costume would be all lavender.
Sara: For some reason, Dick Tracy's
charm doesn't seem to work on her.
I don't know what
Emily: what's with the orchid aesthetic?
I don't
Jeremy: guy, she really hates detectives.
And where'd you find that out?
She said she's not into dicks.
Emily: That's no, that's good, Jeremy.
God damn it.
You're embarrassing us.
Jeremy: else could that mean?
Emily: I mean?
it was kind of it was kind of
there, like, it was kind of out.
Anyway yeah, so this
Sara: This is a serious movie.
I'll say that.
Like, it's, it's very serious.
Emily: No, for
real though.
Ben: Oh
Sara: past, that first scene.
Like, the first scene is not at
all serious because it's just
Mark Way being like, lol, lmao.
Like,
people keep dying.
That
Emily: Look at these
Ben: if we're gonna get movies that just
like, start with that like, that scroll,
or just exposition dumps, I really like
the idea of, you know, get your like,
your fucking, your Charles Dance, or your
Brian Cox to just throw a little like,
oy, this is some horse shit, in there,
Emily: Yeah, like have, have the narrator
be a lot more engaged instead of like,
scratch, freeze frame.
Ben: Like, I don't know if y'all have
seen this, but they got Brian Cox to
do a YouTube video recapping the plot
of the entire Tekken series, and if the
goal was let's get this noted British
actor to make our game sound epic and
cool it did not work because Brian Cox
is the master of audibly giving no fucks.
Emily: I mean, that sounds
appropriate for Tekken though.
Ben: He gives it the same amount of
effort he does selling the McFlurry
Jeremy: This man sized
jaguar named King, and yeah,
Ben: my favorite thing is to tell
people like like, oh, that Brian
Cox is the McDonald's spokesman,
and then they used to go like,
Jeremy: ba ba
ba.
Ben: And they'd be like, oh, like,
way before Succession, like, back
in the day, he did some McDonald's
commercials, So I'm like, no, in the
year of our Lord 2024, Brian Cox is
currently doing McDonald's commercials.
Emily: know, I mean, if
that's what pays the bills,
Ben: I imagine it pays very well.
Emily: Yeah, Tekken, like, just Tekken.
Sorry, now I'm like,
thinking about Tekken.
Ben: Brian Cox is firmly in his, yes, I
will take all the money, Thank you, phase
of his career, and God fucking bless.
Jeremy: Sarah, you were saying, like,
how serious this movie is, and I think,
like, that more than anything is kind of,
like, what bothers me during this movie,
which is, like, Nell is clearly haunting
or not in the process of a breakdown, and
the people around her are not helping.
Ben: No.
Sara: that they know what she's
going through because I don't think
she knows quite what she's going
through, but it's,
Jeremy: I feel like, internal
narration or not, if you were,
like, watching her through any five
minutes of what's going on in this
movie, you'd be like, Something is
Sara: does she keep going into
that corner and talking to it?
It's like, yeah, no, for sure.
Emily: And one thing I didn't
mention was the bit where the house
literally, like, wrote to her.
It says, like, come home, Eleanor,
or whatever, and she's really bad.
Now no, there's no follow up to that
other than, like, it is part of the
Ben: Well, we do, we do get that great
fucking scene of Luke going like,
it's chalk, and Marquois going like,
or something like chalk, and then
just starts licking the ghost chalk.
Emily: I mean If it could have been
Ben: Fucking just rubbing
it in his gums like fucking
Jeremy: will, I will say if the, if
the haunted house did in fact write
that message, that is the nicest
handwriting I've ever seen a house
have, especially a haunted one.
Like,
Emily: I've never seen a house
with like nice cursive like that.
Jeremy: my, cause my impression, From
that scene, it was that at some point
we were gonna find out that Theo did
that, because like, Theo seems very
nonplussed about the whole shit.
She's just like, oh, it's somebody
wrote her name on chalk on the wall.
Hmm, that's whatever.
And then Theo is the only one in
Sara: different clowns for her.
Yeah, really nice handwriting.
She would, right?
Oh my god, she's so perfect.
Jeremy: Luke's would be
feral and spelled wrong.
Ben: Yep.
Sara: Yeah.
Jeremy: and like, Markway's would
have like a star and then notes
as to what the house meant by
Emily: yeah.
The Markweights would be annotated.
Ben: I love Theo, and she is,
Emily: It's a footnote on the floor.
Ben: is, Theo is such a big do
I wanna be her or be with her?
Yes.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: This is also how
Theo feels about herself.
Sara: yeah,
Ben: I don't, there's definitely
action steotapes that I,
are definitely not great.
I mean, this is I don't love that she is
intentionally trying to get Nel drunk,
knowing that Nel has no experience with
alcohol, to continue flirting with someone
who has already rejected your signals.
Emily: With Nell, both Theo and Dr.
Markway alternately are
interested in her experience.
But then, and dismiss her experience.
She's like, this happened to me,
and they're like, oh, whoa, what?
Really?
And then, they're like, she's
like, it scared me, and they're
like, well, that's stupid.
Why would it scare you?
It's just, little voices in the wall.
You know?
Like, it's just children crying,
and she's like, but, uh, kids.
being hurt this bad?
And they're like, well, it's not real.
But if it's a hallucination,
it could be invalidated in
our entire fucking experiment.
I'm like, you guys, none of you
are on like a page except for Luke.
Luke is like, I want money.
And
Ben: Luke's a real one
as far as I'm concerned.
Luke does nothing wrong the entire movie.
Emily: he, yeah, he, like his through
line is like, I'm going to sell this shit.
Like, look at this house, look at
all this stuff, look at this library.
I can sell it.
I The second that this starts
like the door starts pulsating.
He's like,
Jeremy: Then it turns into Pawn Stars.
Like, he's just like, how much can I sell
all these individual items for the house?
Probably a bust.
Needs to be burned down.
But, how much do you think
this silver is worth?
Ben: Magic Magical statue
that appeared out of thin air?
I can definitely cut that
up and sell that shit.
Emily: I know.
He's like, I'm gonna sell it.
Turn it to
Ben: Did y'all catch that moment
where Luke's drinking and then
he drops the bottle and it lands
Completely like standing up
Emily: Yes, I did.
Because in every other movie
that bottle would have broken,
but this movie
decided.
Yeah, that this
Ben: Doesn't even spell,
doesn't even fall over.
Emily: Yeah.
And it was real.
It was real for that.
Ben: It was real.
I'd like to, I'd like to imagine
as soon as they, they, like, they
went and caught, like, they just,
everyone just looked to the bottom and
like, Did you fucking see that shit?
Sara: I
Emily: Water bottle challenge.
I know that the door is pulsating.
But check this out, and then he dabs.
Jeremy: So, guys, I guess it's time to
get to the questions of things like,
Do we think this movie's feminist?
Emily: You know, actually, I don't know.
Ben: is, that is a tougher question
than we normally have in this.
Emily: Yeah, because, I mean,
I think it, it wants to be,
Ben: This movie gives us a lesbian
character for the ages, but it's also
very much not exempt from falling into
certain tropes of the predatory lesbian.
Emily: Yeah, and the
moody
Ben: much as, as much as
Cynthia is a fuckin icon.
Emily: Yeah, like the women in
the movie are either victimized
or shitty people, really,
Ben: Yeah, but they're so hot
while being shitty people.
Emily: yeah,
Ben: We get Grace, she's in an attic.
Emily: well, she's, she's victimized,
like, she goes in there, she's a sensible,
she's probably the most sensible person
in this movie, and the house immediate,
immediately is like, I'm gonna eat
you, and then, poop you out for funsies
Jeremy: I don't know, I
feel like It's terrible.
I feel like Grace was asking for it.
I feel like there's this type of
character, like, I am personally a
person who doesn't believe in ghosts,
but, like, I am also not the person who
doesn't believe in ghosts who will walk
into the house and be like, Where's the
place where all the bad shit happens?
I want to sleep there.
Fuck you guys.
Fuck all this noise.
I'm gonna go sleep in the nursery.
And it's just, I'm
like, no, don't do that.
That shit happens there,
Emily: but she also, the interesting
thing about that bit was that she,
they were just trying to figure out
where she was gonna sleep, and they
were like, uh, you shouldn't be here,
and then Eleanor's like, nursery,
ha ha ha lol, and then, not at all.
Setting up like a weird honeypot for the
house or for her or for whatever and then
she's like, yeah, the nursery and then
Markway is like, whoa and Eleanor is like,
oh no, she's in the nursery So there's
a lot going on with that particular
situation, I think Which you know, she
doubles down because she's so intent on
like proving these all these assholes
wrong You but, you know, at least Eleanor
didn't let Grace die, but she didn't
let her die through her own selfishness
of wanting to be the house's wife.
So, is that feminist?
Ben: I still don't know!
Jeremy: what are your thoughts on this?
Emily: yeah.
Yeah.
Sara: more important that it's a queer
movie, I guess, because it's like,
yeah, it's feminist, kind of, I guess,
in that the women are people and
flawed, which I think is like, I don't
know, hopefully, like, the end result
of feminism is that women characters
don't have to be perfect, right?
I mean, like, as we talked about a little
bit, we said that, obviously, Theo kind of
crosses some boundaries at certain points.
Also, Nell is a homophobe to Theo,
and it's, like, kind of a bad,
Ben: Oh,
that scene is awful.
Sara: And it's, it's, like, awful
great, though, because I can't
imagine, it's,
Ben: visceral feelings of
awfulness, not the movie being bad.
Sara: I don't think that it's
totally for me as a queer person,
I guess I'll just talk for myself.
It's not unheard of for somebody to
say something like that to you where
you're like, Oh, damn, I didn't even
know that I'm like a queer person.
total monster, I guess, just for
being gay in your presence, you
know, or something like that.
Like that seems, like something that
should never happen again, right?
You watch that.
But then Theo's response, I
think, is really telling because
she doesn't lash out at Nell.
So I think that parts of how Theo is
in this movie is a lot about like her
just rough edges and kind of shittiness.
And yeah, she needs to work
on that shit, obviously.
I don't know, whenever it comes
to Nell, when it comes to Grace,
I think Grace is gonna like, find
women's lib in a big way, right?
Like, she's gonna go
Ben: Yep.
Oh yeah.
Sara: like, it's 63, by the time
we hit 69, Grace is a totally
Ben: that was happening with or
without a haunted house, but I
feel like the haunted house is
probably accelerating that journey.
Sara: Nell has moments of
triumph all over this movie.
It's like, yeah, of course it sucks
because she really does just fall into
this new manipulation with the house,
but like, is it better to live with her
horrible sister for the rest of her life?
It's kind of, I think that's like
where they're at the end of the
movie is just being like, what
were we going to do about this?
Like, we didn't know how serious this was.
And I think for the time that's like,
salient because obviously in 1963, the
way that people talked about like women's
health crisis is, Specifically, like,
at that time, somebody having a mental
health crisis was just all across the
board considered whatever, but then,
like, you have, like, especially, like,
women being institutionalized for, like,
having slightly bi feelings, maybe,
which is totally something that I think.
Nell reads as maybe just because
I read the book because Nell is
like very queer in the book, right?
So they kind of like the versions
merge together, and I gotta say
like, I don't even know if I would
consider Shirley Jackson to be
like a feminist writer, I guess.
Like, I think that it's sometimes
things just don't fit in that, right?
It's like, does it pass the vegetal test?
Actually, yeah, like, you know, but
it's like, we can't, we can't, The
whole thing's, you know, it's just
like the nuance of the characters I
felt like was like the thing that was
the most important to me, I guess.
It's like hard to say
that it's feminist, right?
Because I don't think it maybe is.
but I don't think it's not.
Like,
Emily: yeah what you've said is
actually really swayed me because I'm
thinking about how, these characters,
these women characters are the most
complex characters in the story.
Sara: a wide margin, and we follow
them and we don't follow them in.
And that's a big point too,
because the guys will be like
something wild just happened.
And they're like, okay, but
we don't know their story
Emily: and
Sara: not their story.
Emily: yeah, we're also not like, they're
not as invested in the whole situation
and invested like in each other at all.
And in a way Markway does read as
dismissive like his dismissal of
Eleanor, he just reads as a shitty guy,
and he's like the only person that is
possibly giving her any sort of credit
in terms of like, taking her seriously.
Other than Theo, but Theo is sort of
doing a different approach where she
is approaching Eleanor from her you
know, she's being edgy and approaching
Eleanor from her vulnerabilities.
in that way that.
People who have had these experiences
will challenge people that they
know are on the fence, right?
Or that they have an interest in you know,
especially with her sort of with Theo
being as aggressive to Eleanor as she is.
Not just as you know, in, in the dialogue
and in challenging her ideals and her,
like, guilt and everything about what
happened with her mother and all that,
but also being touchy, giving her, like, a
new hairstyle and all this kind of stuff.
Like, she is, she has her hands all
over Eleanor for most of the movie.
And for me, the homophobic comments
that she made also read as like,
fuck you for being so mean to me,
like, that's another element of it
Sara: Right.
Yeah.
Emily: yeah, like, you could absolutely,
since the, gayness is text, essentially,
Ben: much so.
Emily: yeah, and their, their
relationship is very, very intense.
Yeah, but I also feel like there's
some, something further to that.
So with all of that in mind, I do
think that this movie, especially
for the time, is feminist.
It is making steps because these
women are 3 dimensional and flawed
and different also the women
characters far outnumber the men.
And you also have like All of these
women characters in positions of
power, like the owner of the house,
the caretaker of the house the ghosts,
Sara: The two guys just kind
of like stumble into this.
Like the guy is like, cool,
I've got a bunch of money.
And the other guy's like, well, I got
a bunch of money, so I guess I'm here.
And that's basically it.
Emily: that's, this is fucked up, man.
Isn't this fucked up?
Yeah, this is fucked up.
Yeah, whoa, fucked up.
Hey, don't die!
Ah, fuck.
She died.
Jeremy: guy.
It's really gonna mess
up my, uh, results here.
Hard to submit this thesis.
Ben: mean, in order to be good
science, he would have had
to have done multiple trials.
A, this would have required multiple
groups of people at the ghost house,
and it also would have required a
trial house, where we get another
group of ga We get another
group of mentally unstable gay
weirdos into a non ghost house.
But you tell them there are ghosts, and
you man, you just see the difference.
Emily: Yeah, scientific method
is not being followed here.
Just FYI.
Ben: This needs to be replicable.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: Other scientists need to be able
to reproduce these results with other
gay people in other haunted houses.
Emily: Yes.
Maybe that's why he, he made the
group so much smaller because
Ben: That right there, man, is bad data.
I mean, unless,
don't
Emily: but like his control
group is also small.
Like, if he had more people
than it, I don't know.
Ben: Easier control group, that makes
sense, given you gotta double up, yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
See I thought about it just now.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
Ben: the best would be if you could
somehow memory white people and then
you could put them through the control
house and then the ghost house.
Emily: But then you're,
you're meddling with the data.
Jeremy: Okay.
Now on some of our other questions here,
Ben: No, more scien more
scientific method talk!
Emily: Quote
Ben: no not actually scientific
method talk, I'm pretty sure
we've lost half the listeners now.
Jeremy: yeah just us and Francis Bacon.
Let's race.
Does this movie have anything
to say about race whatsoever?
Emily: Not at all.
Jeremy: I don't feel like, no.
Emily: there is no race in
Sara: Some rich people are, or
wait, white people are rich and
kind of ridiculous, I guess.
It's like, Definitely.
I mean, yeah, rich people
get dragged by themselves in
Ben: yeah, we, we get like, the idol rich.
We get the I'm so rich I'm
just going around looking for
haunted houses, I'm so bored.
Emily: Yeah.
I want to go and put
myself in danger, Rich.
Ben: where's that guy, like, wait,
like, why can't we have like, Zuckerberg
being like, I need to just buy all
the most haunted shit in the world.
Sara: Give it a shot, Zuck.
Have a great time.
Ben: the catacombs from France.
Do it.
I dare you, Zuckerberg.
Unless you're
too poor.
Unless you're too poor
to buy the catacombs.
Emily: don't neg him into doing this.
Jesus
Ben: making Zuckerberg into
Jeremy: instead they just
insist on haunting us.
Ben: have a plan.
Emily: France, you don't
want to fuck with France.
They will haunt us.
Jeremy: What do we feel like?
I mean, we mentioned a little
bit that this movie does sort
of deal with the idol race.
Do we feel like it has anything
really to say about class generally?
Or,
Sara: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah, especially with Eleanor's
situation, where she comes from, she is.
Sara: untreated mental health issues,
the fact that she had to take care of her
mother instead of having her own life, the
fact that she's dependent on her siblings,
the fact that the car is like huge,
it's like
Ben: I feel like
especially if this kind of house, there's
elements of gothic romance and I feel like
especially with gothic romance, you know,
in America especially, usually more so
southern gothic, but still applies here.
It's like.
Anytime you're dealing with a story set
in a house that nice, you're dealing
with wealth and a family that was able
to obtain or build that house through
non, and nobody gets that rich ethically.
Emily: Yeah.
Well, that is covered.
I think it's covered in the
book and it is also mentioned.
It's a big plot point in the
new version of the movie.
Ben: Old money just means your family's
crimes happened long enough for people
to have forgotten the specifics.
Emily: yeah they didn't go into like
Hugh Crane and how fucked up he was
Jeremy: I mean, they tell us in
the movie that he was fucked up.
That's pretty much as far as they go, that
they're like,
Ukraine, what a motherfucker.
Emily: Yeah.
Look at your little girl.
Look at your dead mother.
No, look at her.
Jeremy: The movie is basically like
Hugh Crane, don't get me started.
and then just moves on.
Emily: Yeah.
Sara: yeah, I think that I also get the
vibe that Theo isn't rich, you know,
it's like this idea of like somebody
who is an artist or who affiliates with
artists who has ties to people who are
rich, but isn't necessarily rich herself.
And she's also probably about
to rent a new apartment from
what I know of the script.
So it's like she's in trouble
too, kind of, and she's skilled,
but what does it do for her?
Right?
We don't know.
Yeah.
Emily: feel like she's, she
could go either way, but I
feel like she comes off as rich
Sara: Yeah.
Sure,
Jeremy: I feel like
she feels like one of the characters
from the like, from Andy Warhol's
Little Gang, especially in like,
you know, uh, Breakfast at Tiffany's, that
Sara: yeah, I don't know if her parents
still talk to her because she's gay
and it's the 60s, but like, yeah, she
definitely, thereby, would probably
hang out with the Warhol, right?
Like, the Warhol factory, but
Emily: yeah, that is a good point.
Like, She's definitely on the
scene, whether she is like,
she probably comes from money.
Is she currently financially stable?
That's a big question
Sara: doesn't seem like it,
because we don't really know
what her job is, so it's like,
Emily: yeah.
And she's, she's really good
at making herself look good.
So, who couldn't say?
Sara: she does make
herself look really good.
Emily: Yeah, anyway,
Ben: That she very much does.
Emily: But I do think there is something
to be said about the movie's handling
of mental health Because I think it
is a little bit more sympathetic,
even though Eleanor is kind of, she's
a little bit over the top, right?
And she is kind of treated like this
sort of mystical like, crazy fate woman
from, like, she's a Cassandra, you know?
Jeremy: yeah.
Emily: But I also think that a lot of
what her situation tells us is that
the fact that she is dismissed and
that everybody treats her like shit
and everybody dismisses her deal, that
untreated unrespected mental struggle
that she's going through with her
PTSD and her guilt and everything.
is one of the reasons that she
died, and it's not blaming her
because she she is into it.
And then she at the last minute,
she's like, oh, no, I don't want
to run into the tree or whatever,
but she was, following that call
of the void for a lot of the movie.
And we could see that her situation,
like, what is, what else does she have?
And she did say, like, I
don't have anything else.
I don't have a, an apartment with little.
Lions, whose teeth I brush every
night or whatever, which is wild.
I was like, I know I want
little lions brush their teeth.
Um, I don't know why the lions
figured in maybe it's pride.
I don't know.
But anyway I think, for the
time it's definitely not.
Super progressive compared to things,
the conversations, but for the
considering, like, the conversation
that was happening at that time.
I think it's definitely
progressive in that regard.
Sara: And Shirley Jackson, obviously
like kind of famously dealt with a
bunch of mental health struggles, but
also like the there's a funny story
about like Robert Weiss going to
meet with Shirley Jackson and being
like, so like, it's just her, right?
It's just Eleanor.
It's not, it's just in her head, right?
And Shirley Jackson's like, that's such
a cool idea, but what if it's ghosts?
Emily: Yeah.
Sara: was basically the vibe, right,
is because Shirley Jackson wrote the
book initially because it was like
she says that she was watching a
TV show where everybody had seen a
ghost and they were all just like,
No, it was just science or whatever.
And
Emily: was all dismissing
Sara: He's like, you're all lying.
It's actually ghosts.
And so that to me, that story, you
know, whether it's true or not,
but that's something that was told
about the writing of the book.
And then just that kind of, uh,
I guess dichotomy between her and
like Robert Weiss's vision for
it, right, is kind of interesting
because You know, it is ambiguous.
Was it mental health or did like
the house eat her or is it both?
Question mark, question
mark, question mark.
And I think that they followed
that up in pretty much every
single adaptation, right?
Is Nell having this kind of, is
it her, is it the house, etc.
But yeah, I don't know.
It is, to me, I think it is good for
mental health stuff, kind of, to some
extent, because it does take it seriously.
But, she does die, so,
I don't know how great.
Emily: yeah, well, her, the fact
that she is not fully aware of the
situation, I think is important.
And the fact that she, doesn't
really understand what it means when
she's like, committing to the house.
Um, because she wants somewhere to belong,
right?
She wants to belong, but then she
doesn't know exactly what that means.
And I feel like that is.
Ben: very Arrested Development,
like, there's a very, I don't know,
there's elements where it seems like
they're very much infantilizing, Nell.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: The idea of this, this
movie being something like Arrested
Development, just, uh, I just, I
just really pictured just like the
narrator dropping it in the background.
Ben: Arrested Development
in its actual definition,
not the amazing show that I
very much need to rewatch.
Jeremy: but just the idea of like, Nell
being like, the house wants me here!
And just the narrator being
like, the house didn't.
Just, just like, that makes
this a very different movie if
you get the drop in narrator.
Heheheheheheheheheheh
Ben: my gay occupants equally,
because I don't care for Luke.
Hmm.
Emily: well, hey, you know, I think that
it's, it's good that the, that it's vague,
we don't know if there's a real ghost.
We did see a door pulsate.
That's fucked up.
But, like, the fact that it still could be
imagination or some kind of, like, mass,
I mean, it could be in their heads that
there's a magical realism element to it.
Is, but the fact that it's
vague, and it is very strong and
sort of, there are ghosts, but.
1 thing that I always like in a movie
is when it's like, it could be 1 or the
other and it doesn't change the plot.
Because what happened happened and
the engagement of the characters
was up to the characters.
They're reacting to the stimuli and they
make these decisions based on what they're
given, whether it's ghosts or not, and
in this situation, I feel like it's very.
Interesting you know, and also
in, like, the context of the
experiment, but the ghosts don't talk.
They don't.
Tell other than the welcome home Eleanor,
which could be someone fucking with her.
We don't know.
But I do, I think in this case, the, that
vagueness really works for the movie.
Because I think it would be a little
bit more dismissive if it all was
in Eleanor's head, because then
everybody's dismissal of her would
be a little bit more validated.
When everybody is seeing fucked
up shit now, they're like, okay,
well, to be on the safe side, let's
Sara: Maybe it's ghosts.
Emily: Yeah.
It is.
It is.
So it is, so if it's probably
ghosts, we don't have an explanation.
This shit's way too fucked up to have
an explanation, since we came here
looking for ghosts and we found ghosts
and now we're like, fuck this, I'm out.
Like that motherfucker, Prometheus.
Ben: Well, that's why I like
Marko that's why Marko is so
great, where he's like, We did it!
Found ghosts!
Got exactly what he's like, no, this
isn't paranormal, this is just, uh,
we don't have an explanation for this.
Paranormal, that's
something totally different.
Emily: this is not normal.
There's no normal about this.
There's nothing natural,
super, or otherwise.
Ben: Again, like we said, the
only time this man displays
fear is when his wife shows up.
Emily: Yes, true.
Sara: Grace.
Emily: else
Ben: So yeah, so do we recommend
is that all our questions?
Do we recommend the haunting?
Jeremy: Yeah, I think so.
Emily: absolutely.
Jeremy: I think, I don't know if this was
intentional for the director in this, or
it was a decision that was made at some
other stage, but like, I think it's so
interesting that it's called The Haunting
and not The Haunting of Hill House, which,
is what it's based on, because I feel like
the energy they put into making Eleanor
haunted, as compared to, the house.
The house is haunted, but most of the
stuff it does that doesn't involve
Eleanor is just kind of creepy.
But like Eleanor it seems like she
is the one experiencing the haunting
and that's not the house so much
Emily: Yes.
That's a good point.
Jeremy: Yeah, but yeah,
I absolutely recommend it
Sara: Oh, do I recommend this movie?
Yeah, no,
I'm, this is like literally
my favorite goddamn movie.
Yeah.
I love this movie so much.
I watched this movie.
It's like, Do I exist without this movie?
Does this movie exist without me?
I don't really know.
I watched it pretty young on like
TCM and I just remember being
like, what is, everything's gay.
Like I, and this is in the nineties.
That's not whenever everything was gay.
Even the haunting from the
nineties isn't as gay as this.
So just watching this and being like,
God, Oh my God, Theo, you're so queer.
Like, I'm so thrilled to see you and I'm.
Thrilled that you're so problematic
because I really don't think that we have
that many problematic lesbians right now.
Like, obviously, like, that was
all we had for a super long time.
And so people are like,
let's take a break.
And so a lot of times I think societally,
like, you just kind of want to be like,
let's do like an appeasing lesbian.
Nothing horrible happens to
her, you know, and all of that.
I understand why people
want those stories.
But I want a story about
Theo where she's just so.
So goddamn complicated.
And you're like, you're being a dick
half the time, but like, I love you.
You know, it's like, you're such
a interesting character and I
love your protection of Nell.
I question the way you talk to Nell.
Like I have a lot of mixed feelings
about it, but I think I'm supposed
to, and I enjoy that a lot.
And I would say that that's kind
of, if you read Shirley Jackson
stuff, that's something that
comes a lot through her writing.
And I would say that this movie is
such a different spin on it, right?
And I think that that's the same of
every single spin on this movie or on
the book, is that everybody's just going
to go in their different directions.
And so every single one of
them is a different movie to me
from a different perspective.
And I just think that's
part of the majesty of it.
I also don't think it expects people
to be perfect, and I really appreciate
that, speaking as somebody in 2024, where
I think a lot of what people want from
horror is to have, and understandably
so, because we've dealt with a lot of
horror that has so many issues, right?
You have a series called
Progressively Horrified.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sara: For a reason.
And I commend you.
Like, I really love this podcast.
So I like, you know, I'm glad,
I'm so glad that you all are here.
I was just listening to your choices
of 2023 movies, and I'm excited
to get back to it after this.
But I just wanted to say that, like,
yes, I love looking at, Theo and
being like, what the hell, Theo, you
didn't need to be that mean to Nell.
Like, come on, I know you
just have a crush on her.
And then it's just with Nell, I,
you didn't have to say homophobic
shit to Theo like, but I love
that they do these things.
Not that I commend them for doing them,
but because it feels real and it feels
like something, not necessarily like that
I've ever been trapped in a haunted house
and done these same things, or that I
even would, if I were given the chance.
But I just like to see these
kinds of messy relationships.
And this movie, if nothing else, it has a
very messy relationship between two women
that I just think is just like, chef's
Emily: a good point.
Yeah,
Sara: It's so good.
So yes, I would recommend this.
I think it's so good.
I love this movie so much.
Emily: what you said about a piece of
media that either, you know, I don't know
what it would be like without me, I don't
know what I would be like without it,
is so poignant for me because it's like
there's so much media that I could say,
I haven't, I haven't actually defined
it like that before, but like, there's,
Sara: stuff merges with you and you're
just like, no, I can't unsee it.
And that's me.
I mean, if nothing else, you see me
enter a room in a black turtleneck.
It's just like.
I know who that is, I know where this
comes from, and hopefully we can all be
the better versions of those characters,
but that's just it, like, yeah, how
do you separate yourself from the art
that, like, really inspires you, right?
It's hard to say, and it's just like, but
also, how do you understand the haunting
if you haven't met me, Sarah Century?
Like,
Emily: Yeah.
Well, I'd seen the haunting from the 90s.
I've seen, I've read the book, I
hadn't seen this version before
and I'm really glad that I did.
And I'm, I'm actually really
like just how homosexual it was.
I was
Sara: And it doesn't go
away, baby.
It's like, like literally even in
the newest one, but as you said,
she literally has sex with a woman
and it's played by a bisexual actor.
And you're just like,
how is this less gay?
Emily: yeah, yeah.
It's still less gay than this movie.
This
movie is.
like for 1963, bless it.
Sara: And like Theo and Nell don't really
have them, they're sisters in that.
And so like that, that
central relationship is kind of gone.
Ben: well, also there's
the Nell being dead for
Sara: the whole thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
it's great.
I think that that's a great show, but
it's also just like, there is something
about the relationship with Nell and Theo,
how you have that book, you have this
movie, and then you have the 1999 version.
And like, just the way that their
relationship kind of changes, because
I think at this time, like predatory
lesbians were all that existed.
Right?
And I think that as far as that
trope goes, Theo is incredibly
sympathetic uh, compared to many others
Emily: She is
more of a complex character than yeah,
Sara: But, but that
doesn't excuse anything.
And so it's just like, super
fascinating because in the book, it's
a totally different relationship.
Like it's more Theo being
like, Whoa, like back up.
And now it's like, one of these
days I'm going to move in with you.
And Theo's like, I live
with a woman already!
Like, get out of here!
Like, get out of here, you!
Like, so I don't know, the vibes and like,
just that changing relationship, I guess,
is something I really love about this
and Shirley Jackson's writing just being
so ambiguous and poetic and beautiful.
Emily: yeah.
For real.
Sara: And Robert, why is being so
Ben: I definitely recommend this, and,
check out all The hauntings, this, the
99, you're of Hill Houses, you're of
Bly Manners, if you want things to get
real real textually gay, which, you're
listening to this podcast, you do,
Sara: huh?
Jeremy: it's so interesting to me watching
this movie that is in some ways so sparse
and despite the like Scene I was talking
about at the end where they're like,
let's explore the themes of this film It's
still, like, really ambiguous, a lot of
the stuff they do in it, the, you know,
what is going on is pretty ambiguous.
I just happened to watch this and Bo
is Afraid within a couple days of each
other, and Bo is Afraid is a full three
hours of just, like, really spelling
out things that, like, R is still, like,
they're still meant to be ambiguous and
over the top, and at the end of three
hours, I was just like, I don't care.
I don't care about this.
Whereas, like, at the end of, The
Haunting, I was just like, yeah, but what?
Sara: in here and explain this to me!
Yeah, because you get the feeling
that when they tidy it up, they're
doing that for themselves, not
for us, and it's not what's real.
Like, they're not telling us what actually
Jeremy: Yeah.
I mean, that feels like a studio
note, especially as much as it feels
like, The end of Psycho where the
detective comes in and is like, well,
Sara: you better say what Norman
Bates was all about because otherwise
people are going to really worry
Jeremy: Yeah.
Yeah.
It felt like the end of this movie,
the studio was like, no, we have
to tell people what happened in
the movie or they'll be very upset.
Or they will come
Emily: Never there was
a story with more woe.
Sara: and then a cartoon version
of Shirley Jackson pops up in
the corner is like it's ghost.
Emily: Yeah, no, it's ghosts, really, for
Sara: It's actually ghost.
Jeremy: Ghosts actually start.
Emily: actually.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Well, fantastic.
Uh, I mean, going from there,
uh, Sarah, people enjoyed this.
Uh, what else would you recommend?
Sara: Oh anything by Shirley
Jackson, frankly, and if you kind
of like the, ambiguous kind of
storytelling nature of this kind of.
thing subjective, I guess.
Like, it's like, what's
actually real and what's not?
I would say maybe the writing of
Angela Carter kind of would be.
fall into line.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's like, this is such a singular
piece because of its minimalism, right?
So it's kind of hard even to marry
it to stuff that was at the time.
Like, you're just like, this
is such a individual thing.
I would say that, obviously, we
brought up the works of my own Mike
Flanagan multiple times in this,
because you have to, because he did
the Hauntingville House TV series.
So I would say, yeah, check out Bly Manor.
I mean, I'm a big fan of, uh, Turn of the
Screw as well, and I gotta say, turning,
like, making Danny gay was one of the most
genius strokes of fiction of all time.
So I was like, thank God.
Thank God.
Basically that.
I don't know.
All kinds of horror stuff.
Maybe Jennifer Reeder's movies.
She did, uh, the movie Perpetrator.
Like, a bunch of ambiguity
in those, I think.
So maybe something like that.
Jennifer Reeder's great, you know, and I
think it has like, um, I'm not going to
compare identically to Shirley Jackson,
but you know the vibe of just being like
here's a protagonist that is thrown into
the middle of shit and doesn't know what's
going on and maybe it's her and maybe it's
the world, you know, kind of situation.
I'm gonna say those.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
Ben: sounds good,
Sara: my book, my book,
Emily: talk about your book,
Ben: sure to check out
Sarah's book, everyone,
Sara: yeah, which is, uh, if nothing else,
incredibly inspired by Shirley Jackson.
Emily: Nice.
Ben: Emily, what are you
recommending for us tonight?
Emily: Oh I'm gonna go way out
on the, uh, the boundaries here.
I'm gonna go a couple directions.
One if you wanna see a movie about people
dealing with a haunted house, or not a
movie, a show about people dealing with
a haunted house, but from the ghost
perspective there's the show Ghosts.
I would recommend the British one.
I haven't seen the American one.
I can't recommend it
because I've not seen it.
And I, but ghosts, I was just
reminded of that because of the
whole, like, how are we going to
deal with this this haunted house?
Situation but this is it is an
ancestor or not an ancestor.
It is the opposite or I should say
Ben: Descendant.
Emily: send it.
Yeah, haunting of Hill House is an
ancestor of a lot of these things.
And anything with a haunted house, like I
mentioned the shining and stuff like that.
And, Shirley Jackson to Stephen King.
There's another 1.
I can't remember what it was.
That I was going to say, but
check out the show notes.
I'll probably figure it out by then.
But yeah.
And uh, I have to say, read the
Shirley Jackson, the short stories,
the long stories, all the stories.
Sara: Yeah.
And her version of this is just
like a master class in writing.
You're just like, every time
I read it, I'm just like, Oh
no, you're so good at this.
Like, I don't know, I don't know what
the rest of us are doing right now.
Shirley Jackson, why are
you such a good writer?
Jeremy: Yeah.
I've read all of these things.
How can I not do this?
How do I, how do I get your power?
Yeah, what about you, Ben?
Ben: I'm gonna recommend a movie we
covered not too long ago on this podcast,
and I think, uh, you know, another old
school vibe that's very well done, and I'm
gonna recommend Black Christmas from 1974.
Emily: Oh, good call.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, good times, that one.
Sara: I just listened to that episode and
when you say, I have four words, Margot
Kidder, holy fuck, I was like, Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sara: tuned into this one, yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, the first time I watched
that movie, my whole takeaway was just
Margot Kidder, like, I was just like,
Sara: Hard to see anything
else happening on the
Ben: Margot Kidder and us
creating, like, an entire repressed
queer backstory for her in
Sara: I can't believe her name is Barb.
You know, you're just like, oh, Barb.
Jeremy: yeah.
the fact that, like, the two things that
I, like, really remembered from that
movie the first time watching it, like, my
takeaways were, like, holy shit one, she's
In, like, Merton Kitter's in this movie
and her character is very, very gay and
is, just throwing around a lot of, like,
jokes that I've, I feel like as a kid that
grew up in the 80s, I, like, didn't think
were allowed to be in movies, like, you
know, you go back and watch stuff from
the 60s and early 70s and you're like,
Um,
Emily: that went there.
Jeremy: yeah, and then like, I was
like, oh, this whole movie is about
abortion underneath, like, there's
a whole abortion subplot in this, in
which the woman seeking an abortion
is treated as the, like, hero in this
story and the, the shitty boyfriend
who is like, no, you can't have an
abortion is unambiguously a villain.
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: this is the Christmas story guy?
Uh, no.
my recommendation, people kind of
took, I was going to say, uh, Bly
Manor as well uh, which is, probably
my favorite of the Flanagan miniseries.
Like, I like the Hill House one.
It feels a little more constrained
by everything that's come before
it than then Bly Manor, which,
Sara: think so, yeah.
Jeremy: yeah, Bly Manor feels, Bly Manor
is also the one that, like, in Hill
House, there was a lot of, like, I know
that they're doing something, and I'm
not sure what it is yet, and then when
you figure it out, you're like, oh, okay.
But then, like, Bly Manor was one that
I was like, there's a reveal late in the
series that you're like, No, wait, what?
No, wait, what?
Hold on, I gotta, I gotta go back.
Sara: And props to the character of
Dani for being quite literally the
horniest lesbian I've ever seen.
There's so many scenes where she's
just like, vroom eyes at like whatever
woman is near her and you're just like
Danny.
Danny.
Ben: Danny.
Eyes up here, Danny.
Jeremy: I, cannot remember the actress's
name that plays the, housekeeper in that,
Sara: Tanya Miller?
And she was uh, Mrs.
Gross.
Yeah, that's such a good turn too.
Jeremy: she is so good in it, and
then, like, she's also my favorite
part of House of Usher uh, which
she's, she's really wonderful in,
Sara: That was my favorite because
all the rich people die, but Bly
Manor's got to be the second favorite.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I feel like there
are episodes of Follow the House
of Usher that I like more than any
individual episode in Bly Manor.
But like, Bly Manor was the one that
I just kept pressing play to the
next episode when I was watching it.
I was like, alright, I have
watched the whole show today.
Sara: Uh, and it's heartbreaking.
I mean, it's such a good series.
Jeremy: It's interesting that there is
so much, uh, there is so much heartbreak,
and yet the lesbian romance is not the,
like, saddest part of it, by a long shot.
But I I also wanted to recommend just
going from a lot of the vibes of this
film you know, the black and white,
coded as gay, but still like very, very
early in cinema for people to be gay.
But this one goes all the way back to 42
for anybody who hasn't seen Cat People.
Sara: Oh, I was just
gonna say cat people too.
I was like, don't let us get out
of here without saying cat people
because talk about a gay movie.
Jeremy: yeah, very, very gay.
Obviously, like, character lesbian
coded is the horror of the movie.
And her being a cat person is
somehow, I feel like, less terrifying
to the movie than her being gay.
But like, yeah, it's, it's really solid.
It's the 40.
So there are a lot of
like long still shots.
It's so, you know, B have a cup of
coffee before you watch it, because
it is very easy to just sort of like
fall out of this movie if you're not
Sara: But it's where the
jump scare comes from too.
So it'll wake you up eventually.
Emily: That's true.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And then there's, there's a lot of
this movie that I was sort of dubious
about, but the lead is fantastic.
She's great.
I would recommend people check this out.
And even if you don't like it,
it's like a cool 80 minutes.
So like, you know, it's actually 73.
It's 73 minutes long.
So, uh, it, gets in and out with
the cat people very quickly.
But yeah, absolutely
one worth checking out.
And you mentioned Angela Carter.
I feel like, I feel like as a
man, I'm not even allowed to
recommend the bloody chamber, but
like the bloody chamber is great.
Sara: And if, if not, right, like
the company of wolves, because
she co wrote the script with Neil
Gordon, sorry, Neil Jordan, uh,
which later wrote interview with a
vampire movie, which was also not gay.
Jeremy: Neil
Emily: that Company of the Wolves
is the one that I was thinking
of that I couldn't remember
Sara: love that
movie.
Yeah.
Emily: a good movie.
Jeremy: I, love the company.
Well, Neil Jordan is a
really, really interesting
filmmaker for a lot of reasons.
Not the least of which is that
he's largely responsible for the
crying game, you know, which has
some stuff that now is like, Whoa,
but like at the time kind of
progressive, but you know, he's also
Michael Collins and breakfast at Pluto
and, uh, all these other like great
things and has his own like, Fiction
that he's written and stuff too.
So he's sort of a wild Irish writer.
Sara: And apparently him and
Angela Carter got along just great.
Like they were, they wanted to keep
working together, but because she
was sick in her later years, right?
Like she wasn't really able to do as
much, but apparently there was supposed
to be a follow up to Company of Wolves.
And I cannot imagine,
like, as technology increased,
like what would that look like?
It's just kind of mind blowing.
Emily: Things probably, I mean,
I think it looks better than a
lot of stuff that we have now.
Sara: The set design is
ridiculous on that movie.
There's animals everywhere.
Like everywhere you look, it's
just like, there's a frog,
there's a rabbit, there's a snake.
Emily: yeah.
It's like reg dur levels of like
animal Harold, Dre, symbolism and
stuff, or like hoki, you know, like
this gets real, real out there.
But in the, way that like there's
this sort of meta narrative
Sara: Yes.
And rich people die in that too.
It's awesome.
There's like this woman who gets like
impregnated by a lord or something.
And when on his wedding day,
she shows up to the banquet
and is just
like, and like
Emily: And all of the help are like,
Sara: we're go for it.
Yeah,
you should do it.
And she's like cackling having
the best day of her life.
And I'm just like,
Emily: that, yeah, there's an episode,
or there's an episode of, there's like a
whole bunch of little like mini stories
in that, but there's a bit, I have to
really gush about it because that's the
one where the dude's in the woods and
the, this is like, little medieval guy
in the woods in England and then the
fucking devil shows up in a Bentley.
And his driver, who's this like, super
stacked, hot, model lady in like, a butler
outfit, opens his door and this like,
dapper ass motherfucker with a cigarette
or whatever gives this guy like, Here's
your magic potion to make you a werewolf.
Bye.
And just leaves.
And it's so good because like this guy's
like what the fuck just happened that
was that a biblically accurate Buick?
Like, I don't know,
Sara: That's what it's like
to read the bloody chamber.
Yeah, this is just basically
being like, holy shit, what?
Like, every story ever
is in this book somehow.
I don't know how she
managed that, but good job.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's, pretty impressive.
that's a lot of recommendations, a lot of
good stuff for you guys to go seek out.
Uh, speaking of seeking things
out, Sarah, where can they seek
you out outside of here online
and where can they find your work?
Sara: I am not doing social media anymore.
So don't find me anywhere except for
I have a newsletter and the newsletter
is where you get all the information.
So that's where everybody should go.
So you can go to saracentry.
com.
I'm saracentry of saracentry.
com.
I don't know if you know that, but I have
my own website and things, but so you can
go there, read through, there's all kinds
of random stuff, but also, yeah, sign up
for the newsletter because I'll, yeah.
Tell you about my pet rabbits.
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: Nice.
Emily: Say no more.
Ben: Oh, gotta get all them
updates on the hippity hops.
Sara: at this.
Look at this.
It's a cat.
Emily: Oh yeah, Ben is
Ben: I got a big kitty.
Emily: showing off Blargy.
I could show off Oswald
Sara: yeah, please do.
Yeah.
My cats don't go downstairs
because the rabbits bully them.
Ben: Aww, the rabbit showed dominance.
Emily: I mean, that's what has
to happen at a certain point,
Sara: it's true.
It's true.
Jeremy: I don't have
any cats or rabbits, so.
I have
one
Emily: have a dog.
Ben: have kids.
Jeremy: I have one dog and he is
bullied by everything and everybody.
Sara: yeah.
Yeah.
That's the life of a dog.
Emily: we love Ace though.
Jeremy: storms, fireworks, loud
noises, people being too close to
him, people being too far from him.
These are all things that
bother Ace.
He likes to be a certain distance
away from me while I'm writing.
He cannot be on the other side of
the room, and I cannot be too close.
Sara: Yeah.
Jeremy: close by.
Yeah.
Emily: Categories are important.
Jeremy: And, uh, Emily, where
can people find you online?
Emily: Megamoth.
net, Mega underscore moth on
Instagram, Megamoth on Patreon.
And I'm Megamoth on other
things too, you just look me up.
Or else.
Ben: You can find me at benkahncomics.
com Benkahn Comics.
Instagram and Blue Sky.
And, uh, yeah, pick up fun
books like Renegade Rule and
El Cambo Wins Their Weekend.
Emily: Or
Sara: And we interviewed you on
Bitches on Comics, which is my podcast.
Ben: listen to the episodes of Bitches
on Comics that I was on, and also
all the other episodes that I wasn't
on, because it's a wonderful show.
Sara: Oh, thank you.
We love your episodes.
We talked about Riverdale.
We thought we were going
to do an interview and we
just talked about Riverdale.
Ben: Yeah, I'm fine with it.
Emily: Wonderful.
That's wonderful and post.
Jeremy: It's the real, it's
the real Vencom experience.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: Yeah.
I,
Jeremy: I was going to learn about
your work, but instead, now I
know everything about Riverdale.
Ben: what can I say, I have my brand.
I
Emily: we love our media.
Come on.
Ben: sure do.
Jeremy: Yeah.
As for me, you can find me on
Twitter and Instagram at jroom58.
You can find me at bluesky
and Tumblr at JeremyWhitley.
You can find me on my
website at jeremywhitley.
com.
And uh, you can go pick up as this is
out, you can actually go pick up The
Cold Ever After from Titan Comics my
new graphic novel with Megan Wong.
It is a uh, queer Arthurian noir story.
So if you like fantasy, or you
like noir, or you like those
two put together, go It's that.
Plus, so grab that.
Also, you know, as, as I've said several
times, the dog night is out there as is
the second volume extraterrestrial girls,
all of which have come out recently.
Um, so go check that as those out as well.
And of course you can go check
out our podcast on Patreon.
We're progressively horrified on there
and we're progressivelyhorrified.
transistor.
fm.
And we are on Twitter, still,
at ProgHorrorPod where we
would love to hear from you.
You're the only people, really, on
Twitter that we want to hear from.
Um, speaking of loving to hear
from you, we'd love if you'd rate
and review this podcast wherever
you're listening to it right now.
It helps new people find it, and, uh,
that keeps us doing more of these.
So thanks again so much to
Sarah Century for joining us.
It's been a pleasure.
Sara: Yay!
Emily: Thank you.
And thank you for the
recommendation
Sara: No, this was a blast.
I mean, every time I, I've probably
been on like, Two other podcasts talking
about this movie every time, gotta
say, totally different experience.
And this was incredible.
Emily: Interesting.
Ben: Yay.
Well, thank you so much for coming on
and thank you for, uh, yeah, bringing
this, uh, absolute classic to us.
Jeremy: Yeah, it seems unreal that we've
talked about this many horror movies
and had not talked about The Haunting
Dead.
Sara: yeah,
I looked through all of the episodes
and I was like,
Ben: we were overdue.
So now we can cross that
off the old checklist.
Sara: There is literally nothing
else I would have loved more to do
on a Wednesday afternoon, so I, it's
evening, evening, it's night, but
Jeremy: I'm sure sometime when we get
to like episode 500, we'll finally
talk about The Shining, which is
like, Half the world's number one
Ben: Oh shit.
Yeah.
We haven't done the
Jeremy: haven't done The Shining
or The Exorcist to this point,
Ben: Damn.
Emily: yeah, that'll be a special.
Jeremy: or any Romero other than Dawn
of the Dead, or, uh, Night of the Living
Ben: Night of the living dead.
Emily: Yeah, none of those.
We haven't done Dawn of the Dead.
Jeremy: Dawn or Day or any of those,
so, yeah, we still got stuff to cover.
Alright and on that note, until
next time, stay horrified.
Sara: no problem.